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9. COL: With the high level of training that you have accomplished, Do you believe dogs reason? If so, please give us an example that proves this theory.
Jan Shields: In 1971 I flew to the CC of A in Oklahoma City. I had Northshields Amber CDX who had won the Southern California obedience tournament and Ch Antrum All-Try of Northshields UDT, “Wind.” The trial was indoors on mats and we usually show outdoors in California. Wind was entered in open competition and the following occurred during the exercise, “retrieve over the high jump.” Positioned on one side of the 36” jump (collies used to have to jump as high as that) were Wind and I. The judge said “throw it” and I threw his dumbbell over the jump and it landed very short just on the other side of the jump. Upon the command “send your dog” I asked him to retrieve and he took the jump easily. Because I am only 5’1” tall I couldn’t tell how far back the dumbbell was, but he appeared to pick it up and approach the jump and then he stopped. All I could see were two tri color ears over the top of the jump. He was too close to safely clear the obstacle. He stayed there a short time and then I saw his ears turn and trot away from the jump and out to the end of the mat. Where was he going? Reaching the end of the mat he turned back and ran to the jump and took off clearing it nicely. He sat in front of me and then finished on command. We had never trained in that situation, nor indoors, so how did he know what to do? In my opinion he thought it through and decided how he could please me and do as I asked. The title of the article on obedience in the CC of A Bulletin that next month was, “The Collie – A Thinking Dog” and it related what happened to Wind and I in the open ring.
Beth Elliot: Absolutely! It's all about figuring out how to get that reward. My best example is my youngest who had the dog walk issue. While she would walk onto the ramp with her front feet, she'd crab her back feet to the side of it. I brought out the clicker to better mark the behavior I wanted, which was a back foot on the board. It didn't take her long to figure out that if one back foot was good, maybe two would be better, so she tried it. I then proceeded to click and reward for any foot movement up the ramp. Once I started rewarding the small forward progress, she very quickly started going all the way up and over on her own. I never had to click her all the way over. In fact, when I'd click for one foot movement, I'd end the behavior by picking her up off the ramp or encouraging her to come off for her treat. She made the decision on her own to continue, figuring if continuing up the ramp was earning her the click and treat, to keep going could only be better and earn her more.
Vicki Loucks: I do think they reason. You can watch them think in training and on course. One such scenario involves when you send a dog to an obstacle and the dog's favorite obstacle is close by. I have one who you better have her head the whole time or she does a big WOO-HOO and will take her favorite. You can watch her think about it and then off she goes or she'll decide doing what I want is a better choice. You can watch dogs reason or figure things out in behavior training. When asking for a new behavior that you will mark and treat, you will see the dog or puppy start offering all their behaviors til they hit the right one which of course you mark and reward. It's fun to see the
dog or puppy go "okay" and try again. They learn so fast this way since the only way they get a mark and reward is when they offer the correct behavior. They reason it out pretty fast. People are always amazed in my beginning agility class when you can get an untrained dog to start
offering a behavior in a couple tries.
Carol Dunton: I think dogs have some capacity for reasoning. (I can’t envision a dog entering a debate and reasoning at that level. I also can’t see myself sitting down with any of my dogs and talking to them to explain to them why they should or shouldn’t do something.) To me, the word “reason” is used mostly in the form of verbal communication. In a non verbal way, one definition that could be used is “to consider something in a logical way,” such as mentally working out a problem or situation. I do think that I have experienced my dog using his ability to reason in a mental/physical sense. One example that comes to mind is Stryker’s love for the game of chase. He loves to steal my socks and/or shoes and run with them. His favorite part of the game is when I chase him around the house while he runs with the “forbidden” item. (It is a game and I can get the shoe or sock back at any time.) One particular time, I knew he had taken the item as I heard him scamper downstairs and I could hear him running circles around the house with the item. I got busy upstairs and forgot about the game. Next thing I knew, I looked up and there he was with the sock hanging from his mouth, waiting for me to notice him so that I would chase him. He had come back upstairs, waited for me to see him, and showed me that he had the sock so that I would follow him downstairs and play his chase game, which I quickly obliged! I believe that he showed some form of reasoning, or logical thinking by coming back and showing me that he had the sock in order for the chase game to continue. It has been my experience that different dogs have stronger or weaker abilities to reason. It is my “theory” that the more “creative” a dog is, the stronger their ability to reason and solve problems.
Marilyn Clayton: My first collie showed me this very early in our training. We were competing in Novice obedience. "Ceilidh" was a wonderful little bitch but she got her UD because I asked her to, not because she enjoyed it. She was very aware (and uncertain) of various types of footing and was convinced all black, rubber mats were great black holes that ate collies (as did smiley faces drawn in chalk on carpeting and hot air registers!) We were at a trial that had indoor/outdoor carpeting around all four sides of the ring with a double strip of black rubber matting down the middle. The heeling pattern was on the indoor/outdoor matting so we were fine; but the recall was down
the dreaded black rubber mat. As I called her, I could see this terrified look on her face -- she wanted to please me, but she was frightened of the black matting. She took two steps on it (up on her toe nails of course) -- then her eyes brightened; she backed up with confidence; raced around the outside of the ring (on the indoor/outdoor carpeting), then tippy toed, very carefully, onto the black rubber to sit straight in front of me. She problem solved that situation to the satisfaction of both of us (and the judge). To me, that took reasoning. When Zephyr was first introduced to the agility teeter, he was just 4 months old. The teeter had railings on both sides and the pivot was a small log, so the teeter was only 5-6" off the ground. We let him watch his buddy Stitch (Min. Poodle) go across several times; then we lead Zephyr across a couple of time; then called him across a couple of times and then my friend and I released the dogs and went and sat down. As we were sitting there, Zephyr went back onto the teeter himself; tested to find the pivot point; and then "played" with that pivot point. It was like he was trying to understand how it worked. He did that for almost 10 minutes on his own. To me, he appeared to be reasoning out the mechanics of how the teeter worked; feeling what felt comfortable; and determining, through trial and error, how to control the teeter. Once it "made sense" to him, he left the teeter and he's never had problems with it.
Dr. Deanna Levenhagen: Yes, I do believe that a dog is able to reason. I especially see this when a dog is learning a skill or exercise. In fact, you will sometimes hear trainers comment how you can actually see the dog “processing” what you are asking of them. One simple example to demonstrate reasoning or logical thinking would be leaving food on the floor and telling a dog to “leave it.” Initially, the dog has no idea what “leave it” means. The dog sees food and wants to eat it. However, as you train the dog that there are repercussions to taking the food when not invited, they start to process or reason if taking the food on the floor is worth it. In fact, you can usually see this processing in such behaviors as the dog getting closer to the food and then moving away from it again or the dog glancing at you and then looking back at the food. If the skill is taught correctly, the dog will quickly deduce that the reward is in obeying the command. Otherwise, the dog will deduce that despite your command, any food on the floor is his to have whenever he wants.
Sue Larson: I don't believe dogs reason. I do think they learn by watching other dogs, but basically I think they learn because they love working with their person, or they realize they'll get a treat for doing what the owner wants, and/or the activity itself becomes self
rewarding. Tracking, agility and herding all fall in that last category easily. Tracking becomes a game to a dog, and figuring out where the track goes becomes rewarding in itself. In agility, what's not to love about jumping and climbing things and running with
your person! And of course herding is built into a collie and letting them herd has to be the biggest reward of all to them.
Shelley Bergstraser: I do think dogs reason in their way. If challenged and allowed to learn to work, dogs are fascinating and wonderful in their thought processes! I do not believe that dogs make the same connections that we do. I do not believe they are emotional creatures. They do not feel guilt or take revenge. They do not understand "time outs" or corrections after the fact. Dogs LIVE IN THE MOMENT! They absolutely retain a great deal and figure things out, but, to teach or discourage any behaviors you MUST live in the moment with your dog. I love Clicker Training. I learned a lot from Lana Mitchell years ago. I always start puppies with clickers because it really gets them thinking and working and trying to teach YOU, the human, new games. I'd recommend for anyone to look into Clicker Training! Anyways my beloved little "Karma" learned to retrieve many different things using a clicker. She may know well over 100 things she could get for me by name and she adores this game. Karma learned to steal things from people, from grooming tables, etc., to try to earn treats. Well, this behavior became pretty obnoxious after awhile and I told EVERYONE, no more treats, laughs or encouragement for Karma unless she was ASKED for something -- there is no doubt Karma WORKS for food. SO, my brilliant little dog was quite put off by the lack of response she got for just grabbing things. She would just drop the items she had stolen and walk away or sit quietly. Then one day we were at class and she knew I had "cookies" on my person. I was obviously ignoring my perpetually hungry collie so she jumped paws up on a grooming table, grabbed a closed bag of hot dogs, dropped the bag on the floor and stood there looking at me. She poked me with her nose and looked at the sealed baggie of hot dogs on the floor. I looked at her and said, "Karma, I see there is a bag of cookies on the floor. Would you get them for me?" She leaped onto the bag and delivered them to my hand, of course, for a treat. So she not only thought out stealing, but also her OWN game that might meet her ends. She figured out if she MADE something go on the floor and waited for me to ASK her for it, she might get rewarded. She is too funny. Sometimes she even slides things off the table with her foot or nose and then waits for me to ask her for it. She'll stand and look at the object and me until I ask her for it.
Also, anyone who has worked with herding dogs knows they MUST reason when working stock. Sometimes the dogs know before the stock what the stock is thinking of doing. if that is not reasoning, I don't know what is! A good stock dog is the epitome of having to reason for a dog. "Kiss" has reasoned our way out of a tough agility course and saved our run more than once too. I do believe absolutely that they reason, again, they just don't make all the human connections and emotional responses that PEOPLE think they do.
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